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Cowan and Haberland Illuminate the Dogma of Virus Denialism

by Nov 16, 2022Health Freedom, Special Reports55 comments

Electron miscroscopy images of SARS-CoV-2 virions from Na Zh et al., New England Journal of Medicine, February 2020.
Tom Cowan and Marvin Haberland’s failed attempt to rebut me shows how there is no possible evidence they would ever accept that viruses exist.

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Introduction

On November 10, 2022, Tom Cowan published an interview with a German engineer named Marvin Haberland in which they attempt to rebut my article “Answering Tom Cowan’s ‘Five Simple Questions for Virologists’”, in which I pointed out the falsity of Cowan’s claims that scientists never purify samples before isolating viruses in cell culture and never use uninfected controls during the culture experiment. Instead of identifying any actual errors on my part, however, they manage only to pile false claims upon false claims and to tie themselves into knots with self-contradictory gibberish.

Here is the video, which I encourage you to see for yourself so that you can verify that I am accurately characterizing their arguments in my following rebuttal:

To briefly summarize:

  • Cowan cites a hoax article to mischaracterize the 1954 Enders study describing isolation of the measles virus, which certainly did not show that cytopathic effects observed in cell culture are caused by the treatment of the cells and not by a virus.
  • Haberland contradicts Cowan by affirming that I am correct that scientists do purify samples either by filtration or centrifugation before doing cell culture.
  • Haberland also contradicts himself by first saying that this observation of mine is irrelevant because this step is not necessary while later agreeing with Cowan that scientists would need to prove 100% purification at this step for cell culture to be considered a valid method of isolating viruses.
  • Cowan and Haberland contradict themselves and illustrate how there is no possible evidence that they would ever accept for the existence of viruses by first criticizing scientists for not proving that the purified supernatant contains only virus by observing virions under electron microscopy before doing cell culture and then arguing that observation of particles under electron microscopy does not prove that the particles are viruses. (While Cowan does not explicitly repeat the claim here, it is also certainly not true, as he has oft claimed on other occasions, that scientists have no way to tell whether the particles they observe under electron microscopy are viruses or just extracellular vesicles like exosomes.)
  • In attempting to dismiss as irrelevant my correct observation about the falsity of Cowan’s claim that scientists never purify the sample before doing cell culture, Haberland asserts that to prove the existence of a virus, purification and observation under electron microscopy must be done after cell culture. Demonstrating willful ignorance, he claims that this is never done, which is false, as anyone can see even just by looking at the very same New England Journal of Medicine study that they critique together, as well as the studies I had already cited in the very article of mine that they are attempting to rebut.
  • Haberland claims that scientists have never done transmission challenge studies to show that inoculation with an isolated virus causes disease, which is false. In fact, with SARS‑CoV‑2, in addition to numerous animal challenge studies fulfilling Koch’s Postulates, there is also a human challenge study.
  • Haberland claims that scientists never do any experiments to prove that the purified sample obtained from a sick patient contains a virus, which is a ridiculously false claim since that’s precisely the purpose of the cell culture experiment.
  • Haberland dismisses whole genome sequencing as independent proof of the existence of a virus in the sample with remarks that amount to nonsensical gibberish.
  • Haberland dismisses the cell culture experiment as evidence for the presence of a virus in the purified sample by claiming that scientists never use valid uninfected controls. To support this claim, he asserts that studies instead describe “mock infected” cells, which he claims is an undefined term in science and could mean anything. Humorously, Cowan then falsifies Haberland’s claim by presenting the scientific definition of “mock infected”, which means a control given the same treatment except for remaining uninoculated with the supernatant obtained from purifying the patient sample—yet both proceed as though totally oblivious to how Haberland’s claim had just been proven false.
  • Once again illustrating how there is no possible evidence that they would ever accept for the existence of viruses, they both agree that even if scientists used uninfected controls according to the definition of “mock infected” (which they do), this would still be insufficient evidence since they don’t also inoculate the control cells with the supernatant after magically removing the virus from that purified sample (they offer no ideas as to how they expect scientists to be able to do that).
  • Looking again at the New England Journal of Medicine study describing the isolation and whole genome sequencing of SARS‑CoV‑2, Cowan and Haberland assert that images taken with electron microscopy showing the characteristic virions with protruding spike proteins that give coronaviruses their name (corona meaning crown in Latin) are not evidence for the virus since scientists do nothing to otherwise characterize and identify the particles as such, which is also a ridiculously false statement in light of how they demonstrate cytopathic effects and viral replication in cell culture and place the identified virus in its phylogenic tree using whole genome sequencing, which technology poses an insurmountable obstacle for virus denialists since it is independently from the isolation of the virus in cell culture proof of the existence of the virus (hence their reliance on absolute gibberish to dismiss the validity of this technology).

Now let’s examine each of those points in greater detail to illuminate the dogma of virus denialism.

How Cowan Mischaracterizes the 1954 Enders Study

The discussion between Cowan and Haberland begins with the vague claim that virologists “fail to do controls” and so have never proven the existence of any virus. That segues into Cowan presenting an anonymously written article published by the godfather of virus denialism, Stefan Lanka. The article is a hoax, falsely claiming that scientists have never used uninfected controls when doing cell culture experiments, which are considered the gold standard method of virus isolation. Dependent upon that false premise, the article claims that cytopathic effects observed in cell culture are simply caused by the treatment of the cells and not by the presence of a pathogenic virus.

The hoax article’s central claim is that “Cell death caused solely by laboratory conditions and not by a virus has been misinterpreted since 1954 as evidence of the existence, presence, action and malignancy of suspected viruses.” Instead, “The ‘virus effect’, the death of cells in the test tube, invented and made famous in 1954, is a completely normal stress mechanism of cells in the laboratory.”

The reference is to a study by John F. Enders and Thomas C. Peebles published in Experimental Biology and Medicine in June 1954 and titled “Propagation in Tissue Cultures of Cytopathogenic Agents from Patients with Measles”.

This is a study that Cowan and others have cited frequently to support the claim that the cytopathic effects observed in cell culture are not caused by the presence of a virus but by the treatment of the cell culture. To support that claim requires them to deny that scientists use uninoculated controls when doing cell culture experiments.

Consequently, the anonymous author of the hoax article brazenly lies that when Enders and Peebles conducted their experiment, “control tests were not carried out, which is why the observations have no scientific significance.”

This type of bald-faced lie is typical for those in the cult of virus denialism. It is easily disprovable by simply examining the source cited, yet proponents of the claim that viruses have never been proven to exist persist in making such falsifiable claims anyway, as though they expect that nobody will ever actually check the primary source materials to verify their characterization of those sources. For numerous other examples in addition to the false claim that scientists never use controls during cell culture, see my article “Tom Cowan’s Sources Contradict His Claims about SARS‑CoV‑2’s Nonexistence”.

When you point out to them that many studies do describe the use of uninfected controls during cell culture, their response is to offhandedly dismiss the controls as not being “proper” controls, which is exactly what Cowan and Haberland do in response to my observation above that scientists do use controls during cell culture experiments, as we’ll come to shortly.

First, let’s come back to the Enders 1954 study. Cowan knows perfectly well that the claim that no uninoculated controls were used during Ender’s cell culture experiments is false, yet he cites this hoax article to support his position anyway. In fact, he has cited the use of uninoculated controls in the Enders study as supposed proof that the observed cytopathic effects were caused not by the presence of a virus but by the treatment of inoculated and uninoculated cells alike.

Cowan made that argument, for instance, in an online documentary series called Endgame: The Coming Collapse and How to Survive It. The host’s purpose in interviewing Cowan was to share Cowan’s knowledge of gardening with the viewers. (Cowan has a company called Dr. Cowan’s Garden with a founding mission “To improve human, ecological and economic health by increasing the cultivation and consumption of plant diversity.) However, Cowan derailed the interview by expressing his disinterest in discussing the topic he was invited to discuss and instead launching into a discussion about his claim that viruses have never been proven to exist. During that interview, Cowan cited the Enders paper to support his claim.

By Cowan’s account, Enders’ study proved that the supposed measles virus particles were nothing more than the breakdown products of starved and poisoned cells because Enders had shown that particles indistinguishable from viruses were also obtained from an uninoculated cell culture. To support this, Cowan provided the following quote from the paper:

A second agent was obtained from an uninoculated culture of monkey kidney cells. The cytopathic changes it induced in the unstained preparations could not be distinguished with confidence from the viruses isolated from measles.

While that quote might superficially appear to support his claim, in fact, it does not because Cowan simply quotes the statements out of context. Note that what Enders described as indistinguishable was not the agents themselves but the cytopathic effects that those agents caused in the cell cultures.

The paper described the collection of samples from children with measles, purification of the samples by centrifugation, and inoculation with the supernatant in cell cultures. Cytopathic effects were observed in infected cells compared to uninfected controls that had otherwise been maintained under the same conditions.

However, an anomaly was the observation of similar cytopathic effects in one of the control cultures. This was not altogether unexpected. As Enders explained, while monkey kidney cells were a suitable candidate for viral propagation, “it must be borne in mind that cytopathic effects which superficially resemble those resulting from infection by the measles agents may possibly be induced by other viral agents present in the monkey kidney tissue . . . or by unknown factors.” (Emphasis added.)

In other words, it was possible for monkey kidney cell lines used for culture to be contaminated with monkey viruses or for the cells to otherwise show pathologic changes due to other causes. Note also that Enders described the resemblance of these possible changes to the cytopathic effects caused by the measles virus as being superficial.

Enders described isolating measles virus along with two additional “agents” during these cell culture experiments. The first of these was observed in an infected cell line and was distinguished from measles virus because it was “neutralized by herpes simplex immune rabbit serum”, suggesting that the agent was herpes simplex virus.

The second was obtained from the uninoculated control referenced by Cowan. Replacing the selected quote back into its context reveals Cowan’s deception: in fact, the paper states explicitly that the cytopathic effects caused by this agent were “easily distinguished” from the cytopathic effects of measles virus with subsequent observation, and antibodies generated to neutralize measles virus failed to bind with this other agent. Here is the very next sentence following the one Cowan deceitfully plucked from its context (emphasis added):

But, when the cells from infected cultures were fixed and stained, their effect could be easily distinguished since the inter-nuclear changes typical of the measles agents were not observed. Moreover, as we have already indicated, fluids from cultures infected with the agent failed to fix complement in the presence of convalescent measles serum. Obviously the possibility of encountering such agents in studies with measles should be constantly kept in mind.

Thus, the Enders paper does not support Cowan’s claim that the observed cytopathic effects were caused by the treatment of the cell cultures since these effects were not observed in the other uninfected controls; and in the one uninfected control in which cytopathic effects were also observed, contrary to Cowan’s false claim, the effects were distinguished from those caused by the measles virus, and the cause of the cytopathic effects in this control culture were reasonably determined to be due to contamination of the monkey kidney cells with some other virus.

Yes, Scientists Purify Samples Before Inoculation in Cell Culture

After citing the hoax article originating from a publication of Lanka’s, Cowan turns his guest’s attention to my article answering his five questions.

Cowan skips over my answer to his first question, which asked whether it is possible to point to a study in which a virus was isolated. I answered in the affirmative and provided two examples: this 2020 study in Emerging Infectious Diseases describing the isolation of SARS‑CoV‑2 and this 2013 study in Nature describing the isolation of a SARS-like coronavirus (both of which I selected because I knew that Cowan was already aware of them).

Cowan moves on instead to my answer to his second question, which asked whether the term “isolation” can be defined, which question he had premised upon his false claim that scientists never purify samples before doing cell culture. My answer was:

The premise of your question is false. Scientists do purify the sample before doing cell culture. And, yes, we can define what virus “isolation” means to scientists: it means to separate the virus from the host in a way that enables scientists to characterize and identify the virus. The “gold standard” method for doing this is the cell culture.

Cowan asks Haberland whether my answer is correct. Haberland replies by saying:

Well, I would say that the first part, scientists have purified the sample before doing cell culture, there is already a mistake. They don’t need to purify it before doing the cell culture. It’s important to purify it after the cell culture because the virus, as they say, is grown and multiplies in the cell culture. So, we want to purify it afterwards. It is true that they purify, sometimes, samples before culturing them, but it doesn’t matter. We want to prove the virus, we want to obtain the virus separated from everything else in the cell culture. That’s why we need to purify it afterward, and this they never do. And this is the point. This is already debunking the whole thing. I mean, what he [Hammond] says doesn’t even matter.

Thus, Cowan’s guest directly contradicts Cowan’s claim that they never purify the sample before doing cell culture. Haberland essentially agrees with me that Cowan is wrong about that, but he dismisses my admittedly correct observation that Cowan’s claim is false as somehow irrelevant. The relevance, of course, is that it goes to show how Cowan supports his position by making statements that he knows are untrue.

Yes, Scientists Use Purification and Electron Microscopy After Doing Cell Culture

While admitting that I am right that purification of samples is done before inoculation in cell culture, Haberland claims that this is irrelevant because what really needs to happen is for purification to be done after the cell culture experiment. This is never done, he claims, but that is simply another lie.

In fact, both of the studies I had already cited described the purification of virions for observation under electron microscopy after isolation in cell culture.

The first, “Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome Coronavirus 2 from Patient with Coronavirus Disease, United States”, published in March 2020 in the CDC’s journal Emerging Infectious Diseases, describes how infected cells were scraped with the back of a pipette tip and “pelleted by low-speed centrifugation” for observation with electron microscopy.

The second, “Isolation and characterization of a bat SARS-like coronavirus that uses the ACE2 receptor”, published in October 2013 in Nature, similarly describes how, after isolation in cell culture, “Purified virions displayed typical coronavirus morphology under electron microscopy.” An image of virions included in the study includes a caption explaining how virions were collected from the cell culture and “purified by sucrose gradient centrifugation” for observation under an electron microscope.

During their discussion, they also looked at another study, titled “A Novel Coronavirus from Patients with Pneumonia in China, 2019”, published in February 2020 in the New England Journal of Medicine that similarly describes how supernatant from human airway epithelial cell cultures that showed cytopathic effects was collected and centrifuged in preparation for observation under electron microscopy. Like the other two studies, this one includes images of the virions observed under the electron microscope.

After Haberland contradicts Cowan’s claim that they never purify samples before doing cell culture, Cowan objects that it “depends on what you mean by ‘purification’ because to most people that implies, if you purify before the cell culture, then you have pure virus . . . so, that’s not the case.” Of course, Cowan here is simply begging the question by either presuming that there is never a virus in any such sample or insisting without any supporting evidence that there are also other substances in these samples that cause the cytopathic effects subsequently observed in cell culture.

Either way, Haberland then interjects:

What he [Hammond] is saying is that purification beforehand, the sample, they just run it through a filter or they run it through a centrifuge sometimes, but they will not assess the result. They will not check the result with electron microscope, they will not perform experiments like transmission experiments with that, and so on. They will not do any further experiments to check whether there is a virus inside this purification. So they just will take it, put it in culture, and from there on, they will go on. So we need to purify the final result of the cell culture and then prove that this purified virus or particle caused disease. This is the point. . . . There is no electron micrograph from any of these purified samples, so this is the point.

There are several points to make about Haberland’s statements here. First, his claim that they “will not do any further experiments” to determine whether a virus is present in the purified patient sample is nonsensical since that’s precisely what the cell culture experiment is.

Second, his claim that they never do purification and electron microscopy after doing cell culture is false, as I have already shown.

Third, Haberland makes a point about demonstrating that a virus is the cause of a disease, which is beside the point about demonstrating that a virus exists. Obviously, there is no point in discussing the role of a virus like SARS‑CoV‑2 in causing a disease like COVID‑19 with anyone who denies that viruses exist.

Fourth, Haberland is irreconcilably contradicting himself and demonstrating how there is no possible evidence that he would accept for the existence of viruses. He argues that my observation that scientists do purify samples before doing cell culture is irrelevant because this step is unnecessary while at the same time insisting that scientists must prove purification of a virus at this step with electron microscopy. He argues that scientists must prove purification of a virus with electron microscopy at this step while at the same time insisting, as we will come to, that observation of virus-like particles under electron microscopy does not prove the presence of a virus in a purified sample.

In short, to prove the existence of a virus by their Alice-in-Wonderland reasoning is a logical impossibility. Rather than following the scientific method, Cowan and Haberland start from the premise that viruses do not exist and simply reject all evidence that contradicts their belief, notwithstanding how this results in a reliance on irreconcilable self-contradictions.

Yes, Scientists Do Animal and Human Challenge Studies Demonstrating Pathogenicity

Additionally, contrary to Haberland’s false claim, transmission challenge studies have been done. I have already provided several examples in my article “Correcting Misinformation about SARS-CoV-2 Whole Genome Sequencing”. Here is the relevant excerpt from that article:

For example, a study published in Clinical Infectious Diseases on March 26, 2020, described the clinical and pathological manifestations of COVID‑19 in golden Syrian hamsters, which were identified as a good candidate for fulfilling Koch’s Postulates due to their cellular expression of ACE2 (suggesting that it might be possible to infect them with SARS‑CoV‑2). Using a control group of mock-infected hamsters (injected only with phosphate-buffered saline, which was “used to dilute virus stocks to the desired concentration” in the experimental group), they challenged the animals with the virus, observed infection as well as clinical and pathological manifestations of disease, and observed the development of anti-SARS‑CoV‑2 antibodies in all of the hamsters after recovery. (All the hamsters survived the disease.)

In a study published in Nature on May 7, 2020, another team of researchers described a viral challenge with mice genetically modified to express ACE2. Again comparing findings with a control group of mock-infected animals, their findings were similar to the hamster study: the animals in the experiment group became infected, developed disease, and developed antibodies specific to the spike protein of SARS‑CoV‑2.

study published in Cell Research on July 7, 2020, performed a similar viral challenge experiment using rhesus macaques. Once again, in comparison to a control group of uninfected monkeys, the researchers observed that exposed animals became infected, developed disease, and developed antibodies to the virus.

The role of SARS‑CoV‑2 as a necessary but insufficient factor in the pathogenesis of COVID‑19 is a separate topic from the point of this article, though. The question we are concerned with here is whether scientists have actually proven the existence of this novel coronavirus, and the answer is that they have, including through the use of metagenomic sequencing.

As another example, there has actually been a human challenge study with SARS‑CoV‑2 demonstrating the transmissibility and pathogenicity of the virus. Titled “Safety, tolerability and viral kinetics during SARS‑CoV‑2 human challenge in young adults”, it was published in March 2022 in Nature Medicine.

So, Haberland’s claim that such experiments are never done is just another bald-faced lie further illustrating how the cultish belief in the non-existence of viruses is dependent on self-delusion maintained by demonstrable falsehoods and willful ignorance of the scientific literature.

Yes, Scientists Demonstrate that Purified Samples Contain a Virus

Cowan next asks Haberland if he’s aware of any studies in which they purify the sample “to a point where they show you only purified virus before the cell culture”, to which Haberland replies:

Well, some show purified particles, but they haven’t proved that they are viral. Just showing a photograph doesn’t prove anything. You need to prove that these particles you are showing are actually causing disease. So you need to take them out, and you need to, you know, spray them in the air of monkeys or cats or dogs or humans or whatever, or put it in the food, and then you need to prove that you cause the same symptoms in those animals compared to a control group where you spray just water vapor or whatever, and then you can say, okay, yeah, these particles on the picture are actually viral, once you show that they cause disease.

Cowan then repeats that he was unaware of any study in which they looked at the purified supernatant of a collected sample under electron microscopy, and Haberland agrees. Cowan here acknowledges that there are “purification steps before the culture”, but he maintains that “there’s no evidence of a purified virus”.

There are several reiterative or additional points also to be made about this segment of the video.

First, notice that Cowan is attempting to maintain that centrifugation cannot be considered purification of the sample without doing electron microscopy at that step, before inoculation in cell culture. But this is directly contradicted by his own “Statement on Virus Isolation”, in which he describes centrifugation as a process that “purifies the specimen.” It is that purification, his statement goes on to say, that “allows the virologist to demonstrate with electron microscopy” the particles that are “the isolated and purified virus.”

Obviously, whether or not electron microscopy is used to literally observe virions, centrifugation is purification, and setting aside Haberland’s nonsensical claim that scientists never do any experiments to determine whether a virus is present in the purified sample, the use of cell culture is just such an experiment, in addition to which scientists can and do also perform whole genome sequencing and electron microscopy.

As I have already covered in my video “Debunking the ‘Statement on Virus Isolation’”, a central claim of Cowan and his coauthors in that statement is that the “proper” method of virus isolation does not involve culturing the virus in host cells, which is contradicted by the source they cite to support that claim, which is a study in which bacteriophages, which are viruses that infect the single-celled organisms we know as bacteria, were purified by centrifugation from lake samples and cultured in bacterial cells. That is, the “proper” method of virus isolation according to Cowan’s own source is to culture the virus in host cells.

Additionally, during an email correspondence Cowan and I had back in July 2022, Cowan insisted that electron microscopy must be done after purification and before inoculation in cell culture, which I pointed out was also contradicted by his own cited source for the “proper” method of virus isolation, in which study the researchers only did electron microscopy after culturing the viruses in host cells and not between the purification of the lake samples and the cell culture experiment.

I have already pointed out these self-contradictions directly to Cowan during our email exchange, which you can read in my article “Tom Cowan’s Sources Contradict His Claims about SARS-CoV-2’s Nonexistence”. Nevertheless, as you can see, Cowan persists in making the same claims over and over despite knowing them to be erroneous.

Second, notice also that Cowan is maintaining that to prove the presence of a virus in the purified sample, scientists must observe virions under electron microscopy while at the same insisting along with Haberland that observation of particles under electron microscopy does not prove the presence of a virus.

This self-contradiction, again, is a perfect illustration of how there is no evidence that you could ever possibly provide to the virus denialists that they would accept. No matter how much evidence you present, they continually raise the bar and demand even more to the point of absolute absurdity, and it was precisely to illustrate that point that I wrote my article “Answering Tom Cowan’s ‘Five Simple Questions for Virologists’”.

Third, again, contrary to Haberland’s false claim, both animal and human challenge studies have been done demonstrating that SARS‑CoV‑2 causes disease (although, again, it is important to emphasize that infection is a necessary but insufficient factor in the pathogenesis of disease since host factors are also very important).

Fourth, again, it simply is not true that scientists never present evidence that a virus is present in the purified sample. They present multiple lines of evidence demonstrating this to be so, including observation of cytopathic effects and viral replication in cell culture in comparison to uninfected controls, observation of virions under electron microscopy, sequencing of the whole genome of the virus, characterization of its structural proteins, and observation of the binding of generated antibodies to various viral epitopes such as the receptor binding domain of the spike protein of SARS‑CoV‑2.

Ultimately, the key takeaway thus far into the video is that Cowan concedes that I am correct that scientists can and do purify samples by filtration or centrifugation before doing cell culture, which is to say that Cowan tacitly concedes that his claim that scientists only ever use “an unpurified sample” to inoculate cell culture is false—and Cowan knows that it is false.

Yes, Scientists Have Sequenced the Whole Genome of SARS‑CoV‑2

Next, Cowan and Haberland skip over my answers to Cowan’s third and fourth questions and go directly to the fifth. Here, Haberland takes issue with my observation that scientists have sequenced the whole genome of SARS‑CoV‑2, which independently from the isolation of the virus in cell culture is proof of its existence, as I covered in great detail in my article “Correcting Misinformation about SARS-CoV-2 Whole Genome Sequencing”. In response to this observation of mine, Haberland says:

And this is not correct. They have not sequenced the whole genome. They have sequenced the whole cell culture, but from there, they had to use computer programs . . . , and they had to calculate the whole genome. No one actually sequenced the whole genome. They sequence the whole cell culture, the whole mess, and because they don’t know what parts are viral or not, they have to calculate it, and then they get those results, and then they need to use so-called gap-filling algorithms to create the whole genome. So what the guy [Hammond] is saying here is just totally wrong.

In agreement, Cowan then says:

Interestingly, I think “sequencing” is the wrong word for what they’re doing. They’re aligning it or assembling a genome, not sequencing a genome. . . . They’re sequencing the RNA or the DNA from a cell culture, not from any particle called a virus.

Haberland then proceeds:

And the only reason why they need to run the computer program for getting the whole genome is because they have not obtained the virus in a purified state. Otherwise, if they had the virus in a purified state, separated from everything else, then they could sequence the virus in a whole approach without using any tools like metagenomic sequencing. They wouldn’t need to do that. . . . Because they don’t have the virus, they are using the computer algorithms.

Everything Haberland is saying here is completely nonsensical. It is pure gibberish. Whole genome sequencing technology is a computational technology, so it makes absolutely no sense to argue that this technology does not actually sequence the whole genome of a virus because it relies on computer programming. His claim that scientists could but don’t sequence whole genomes without using computer programs is patently absurd. Just how does he propose that scientists go about whole genome sequencing without using computer programs? This is ridiculous and simply reveals his complete lack of understanding about what whole genome sequencing is.

Also, if use of this technology fails to assemble a whole genome, then that is merely a partial genome sequence. Scientists do not simply fabricate the rest if they only obtain a partial genome sequence. They just report the partial genome sequence. You can see this in the GenBank database of genomic sequences, which is filterable by either “complete” or “partial” sequences. (Another international genomic database is GISAID, and here is a map of the phylogenic tree for SARS‑CoV‑2 generated using genome sequences submitted to this database by scientists from all around the globe.)

Haberland’s claim that scientists have to use computers for this because there is not actually any virus there is an absurdity. You cannot use whole genome sequencing technology to sequence the whole genome of a non-existent virus. If there is no virus present, the computer simply cannot produce a whole genome sequence for it. This is a logical impossibility. The claim that the computer essentially just fabricates the whole genome sequence is false and absurd. Whole genome sequencing is not a global conspiracy or a hoax technology.

Additionally, while scientists can and do sequence whole genomes of viruses after purifying and isolating those viruses, the claim that scientists must first purify and isolate a virus before they can sequence its whole genome is also false. I corrected that false claim already in my article “Correcting Misinformation about SARS-CoV-2 Whole Genome Sequencing”.

The argument that scientists “need to” use the tool of metagenomic sequencing because they don’t have an isolated virus is nonsensical. Rather, as I have already explained, this technology enables scientists to sequence whole genomes of a multitude of viruses or microorganisms in parallel and without first isolating each microorganism. This technology has consequently opened frontiers of new research, such as by enabling scientists to better characterize the human virome and microbiome that are so essential for our own health and indeed for our very existence.

As I have previously observed, the existence of metagenomic sequencing technology poses an insurmountable challenge for virus denialists since the sequencing of the whole genome of a virus using this technology is proof of the virus’s existence independent from the isolation of the virus in cell culture.

Finally, the claim that scientists “don’t know what parts are viral or not” is also nonsensical. Of course they do. The whole genome sequence itself identifies the genetic material as viral, bacterial, plant, animal, or human. The sequencing of a virus’s whole genome enables scientists to map it on its phylogenic tree, which is like a family tree showing the evolutionary path of the virus. Again, I explained this already in that previous article, so to learn more about this technology and how Cowan and his fellow virus deniers misinform their audiences about it, just read that article.

Later in the video, they come back to the topic of sequencing, and Haberland makes the additional argument that whole genome sequencing is invalid because they never use “controls”, which makes no sense in the context of this technology and merely reflects the additional false claim that Haberland makes that the technology will produce the same result regardless of whether a virus is actually present or not. Ridiculously, he asserts that if scientists did whole genome sequencing of samples containing no virus, they would get the same result, which once again simply illustrates his lack of understanding of what whole genome sequencing is.

He seems to think that if they took a sample from a healthy patient and sequenced it alongside a sample from a diseased patient and the result was the sequencing of the whole genome of the virus from the healthy patient, too, that this would invalidate the sequencing of the genome from the sick patient. Rather, all this would demonstrate is that the healthy person was actually infected with the virus but simply hadn’t developed the disease (again, viral infection is a necessary but insufficient factor in the pathogenesis of the disease).

That said, it’s worth noting that the authors of the New England Journal of Medicine study that they examine together did obtain samples from patients “with pneumonia of known cause to serve as control samples”; they then did extract nucleic acids “from clinical samples (including uninfected cultures that served as negative controls)” and tested the genetic material for 18 viruses and 4 bacteria; additionally they used “unbiased, high-throughput sequencing”, which refers to next-generation sequencing, “to discover microbial sequences not identifiable” by the testing for the 22 known pathogens.

Cowan also later claims that they assembled the genome by taking RNA sequences, “and then they assemble those into the genome, based on aligning that to a predetermined template that they told the computer to align it according to this template”. This is simply a repetition of Cowan’s false claim that scientists tell the computer what genome to produce, which I already thoroughly refuted in my article “Correcting Misinformation about SARS-CoV-2 Whole Genome Sequencing”, which article I know Cowan is aware of. (Indeed, in response to that article of mine, he put out a video admitting that he hadn’t actually read it and repeating the same false claims I addressed in the article, which prompted me in turn to address those false claims once again in my video “Tom Cowan’s Misinformation on the Sequencing of SARS‑CoV‑2”.)

Also later in the video, Cowan asks Haberland why RT-PCR tests aren’t proof of the presence of SARS‑CoV‑2, which is a separate issue. It is true that the PCR tests have been misused to perpetrate systematic scientific fraud in the counting of “COVID‑19 cases”, as I have previously discussed, most notably in my November 2020 article “Facebook ‘Fact Check’ Lies about PCR Tests and COVID-19 ‘Cases’” and my recent article “Study Finds 42% False Discovery Rate for SARS-CoV-2 PCR Tests”. It suffices to point out that the misuse of PCR tests as a diagnostic tool does not invalidate the PCR technology itself.

Yes, Scientists Use Uninfected Controls During Cell Culture Experiments

Next, Cowan and Kaufman return to the claim that scientists never use controls during cell culture. Despite my having cited studies in which the authors described having used controls, Cowan persists in his claim by further asserting that these were not “proper” controls. The means by which Cowan and his guest attempt to support that assertion is illuminating.

The study Cowan focuses on here is one that I cited in my article about how Cowan’s own cited sources contradict the claims for which he is citing them. I had pointed out how Cowan cited a CDC study to support his claim that SARS‑CoV‑2 is incapable of infecting human cells and could only infect monkey kidney cells (which of course contradicts his claim that the virus doesn’t exist at all). You can read that article of mine for the full context and discussion, but here is the relevant excerpt for our purpose here:

The study findings do not support the conclusion that SARS‑CoV‑2 cannot infect human cells. Rather, the findings simply demonstrate that certain commercially available cell lines are unsuitable for the purpose of culturing SARS‑CoV‑2.

Other studies have in fact cultured SARS‑CoV‑2 using human cell lines. For example, commercially available human airway epithelial cells have been used to isolate SARS‑CoV‑2 from COVID‑19 patient samples.

Sharing his screen during the video, Cowan clicks on that third link, which is to the study titled “A Novel Coronavirus from Patients with Pneumonia in China, 2019”, published on January 24, 2020, in the New England Journal of Medicine.

That study described how samples were taken from patients presenting with disease, purified by centrifugation, isolated in cell culture using human airway epithelial cells, centrifuged again in preparation for observation under electron microscopy, and whole genome sequenced.

Cowan curiously describes this as “one of the main studies” that I use despite my having cited it only in that limited context and despite having cited a great many other studies throughout all of my content addressing the false claims used to support the belief in the nonexistence of viruses. But setting that curiosity aside, his own purpose in citing the study is to try to support his claim that scientists never use controls when doing cell culture. This provides yet another opportunity to illustrate how his claims are contradicted by the sources he cites to support those claims.

In fact, while sharing the paper on his screen, Cowan reads aloud the statement in the paper about how the researchers used “uninfected cultures that served as negative controls”. Then he asks Haberland, “So why isn’t this a valid control?”

Obviously confused, Haberland says that if you “download the whole publication”, you can see that the authors used what they described as “mock infected” cells, which he further claimed was “not a correct scientific control”. He says this is shown in the supplementary appendix, which Cowan then clicks the link to, showing it in his web browser, but it doesn’t show what Haberland claims, so Haberland says it is “not the right document”—even though there is only the one supplementary appendix to this study. Haberland then nonsensically proceeds, “Anyway, if you find the correct methods, because they are not given in this publication, the whole methods section, there you can see what they did in the methods part.”

Thus, Haberland is either imagining a nonexistent supplementary appendix or confusing this study with some other study. In fact, this particular study does not describe their uninfected controls as “mock infected” cells; as Cowan literally shows on his screen while reading it aloud, the study authors just describe their controls as “uninfected controls”, the meaning of which is self-evident: cell cultures given the same treatment except for remaining uninoculated with the supernatant from the purified sample.

Perhaps Haberland had in mind the study I cited from Emerging Infectious Diseases, whose authors did describe their control cultures as “mock infected” cells. Haberland claims:

They don’t document the scientific control. They will not tell you what exactly they did for the mock infection, and “mock infection” is not a defined, you know, self-explanatory statement, because “mock infection” could mean you have a cell culture by itself, you add nothing, you just leave it there; “mock infection” could mean you have a cell culture and you add the same ingredients, and the same antibiotics, and everything the same; or “mock infection” could mean you have a cell culture and you add slightly different chemicals to it. We don’t know.

But that is wrong. Haberland’s claim that “mock infected” has no defined meaning in science is false. In fact, as I pointed out in my article “Tom Cowan’s Sources Contradict His Claims about SARS-CoV-2’s Nonexistence”, the term “mock infected” is defined as follows:

A control used in infection experiments. Two specimens are used one that is infected with the virus/vector of interest and the other is treated the same way except without the virus. Sometimes a non-virulent strain is used in the mock-infected specimen.

So, no, “mock infected” does not mean a cell culture that is not provided the same treatment as the inoculated cells, which would not be a control. The term means a proper control, by definition, and the fact that the authors of the study don’t take the time to explain the meaning of the term to readers does not somehow invalidate their methods or demonstrate that they did not use a proper control during cell culture.

Humorously, after his guest claims that “mock infected” is an undefined term in science, Cowan produces the exact same definition I just provided, once again showing it right on his screen and, after reading it, saying, “This is what we’re meant to believe is a mock infection, which is just a science definition; it’s also the definition from common sense, right?”

Evidently equally oblivious as to how Cowan had just disproven Haberland’s claim that “mock infected” is an undefined term in science, Haberland responds, “Exactly”—as though Cowan had somehow just bolstered Haberland’s false claim that the study—whichever one he actually had in mind—did not use a proper control during cell culture.

Once again illustrating how members of the cult of virus denialism will not accept any evidence, Haberland then proceeds to argue that “even if they did it like this, it would not be appropriate” because it would not control for “all the other variables in the sample”, which just goes right back to dependency on the false claim that scientists never purify the sample before doing cell culture.

Haberland leaves it up to his audience to attempt to puzzle over how to reconcile that argument with his acknowledgment that scientists do purify samples, not to mention his assertion that scientists don’t need to purify samples before doing cell culture to prove the presence of a virus. (It’s worth noting in this context that scientists can also do serial cell culture so that they can demonstrate the presence of a virus in the final culture even if inoculating the initial culture with an unpurified sample.)

Cowan then criticizes the New England Journal of Medicine study on the grounds that the authors “clearly did not take the virus out of the sample” to be able to do what he evidently believes would be the only “proper” way to do a control, which would be to inoculate the mock infected cells, too, with the supernatant obtained from purifying the patient sample, but only after having removed the virus from the resulting supernatant. How he proposes that scientists should accomplish this feat of magic is yet another mystery his audience is left to puzzle over.

This further illustrates how there simply is no evidence that Cowan would accept for the existence of viruses. The bar he sets for evidence of a virus is so high that it is a logical impossibility. When he claims that scientists don’t use “proper” controls when doing cell culture, this is what he means: he even rejects the use of cells given the same treatment as inoculated cells except for remaining uninoculated with the supernatant obtained from purifying the patient sample with centrifugation.

In sum, Cowan and Haberland support their mutual belief in the non-existence of viruses with false claims, self-contradictions, nonsensical gibberish, and demands for scientists to produce evidence that would be acceptable to them by perform logically impossible feats—like sequencing whole genomes without using computers or removing viral particles from the centrifuged supernatant for use in control cultures. Scientists’ inability to perform such magic tricks, they content, are the proof of their contention that no virus has ever been proven to exist.

Yes, Electron Microscopy Images Show SARS‑CoV‑2 Virions

In their preposterous examination of the New England Journal of Medicine study, Cowan and Haberland next look at the electron microscopy images presented, which Haberland rejects as evidence by responding:

They just point these arrows to these particles, and we don’t know what these actually are because nobody has characterized them, nobody has done transmission experiments with those. It’s just a picture out of cell culture, and you could find those out of every cell culture. I am now making an assumption. I say that it can be found in every monkey kidney cell culture which is stressed in terms of adding antibiotics, nutrition, like decreasing fetal bovine serum and so on, you can create these particles.

It suffices to point out that Haberland presents no evidence to support his claim that had the study authors observed supernatant from their uninfected controls under the electron microscope, they would have likewise observed the same particles—not unlike his absurd claim that metagenomic sequencing technology produces whole genome sequences of non-existent viruses.

Beyond the observation that he presents no evidence and acknowledges that he is basing his position on a mere “assumption”, though, it is simply untrue that the observed particles were not otherwise characterized and that there are no reasonable grounds from which to conclude that they are virions.

Again, the researchers had taken a sample from a patient presenting with disease, purified the sample with centrifugation, inoculated the supernatant in cell culture alongside an uninfected control, observed cytopathic effects and viral replication in the inoculated cells but not the control cells, ultracentrifuged supernatant from the cell culture once again for observation under electron microscopy, observed particles with their “quite distinctive spikes” that “gave virions the appearance of a solar corona”, and further characterized the particles by using de novo whole genome sequencing to identify the particles as “a novel betacoronavirus belonging to the sarbecovirus subgenus of Coronaviridae family.”

And while the authors noted that their study “does not fulfill Koch’s postulates”, subsequent studies did demonstrate the pathogenicity of isolated SARS‑CoV‑2 in numerous animal challenge studies as well as a human challenge study.

To claim that none of this is evidence of a virus is simply ludicrous.

While they do not explicitly repeat the claim in this video, they are implicitly relying on the claim made by Tom Cowan and others elsewhere that scientists have no way to tell whether particles they observe under an electron microscope are viruses or extracellular vesicles like exosomes, which is yet another false claim that I have already sufficiently addressed in my article “Tom Cowan’s Sources Contradict His Claims about SARS-CoV-2’s Nonexistence”.

Conclusion

While purporting to debunk my article answering Cowan’s five questions, in fact, Cowan and Haberland fail to identify even a single factual or logical error on my part. Instead, Haberland actually confirms that my observation is correct that, contrary to Cowan’s claim that scientists never purify the sample before doing cell culture, studies do describe the use of filtration or centrifugation at this step, which according to Cowan’s own “Statement on Virus Isolation” is a process that “purifies the sample”. Beyond that, they support their position with additional claims ranging from demonstrably false to utterly nonsensical.

To sustain their belief system, despite claiming to represent true science, members of the cult of virus denialism must absurdly dismiss literally all of the relevant scientific literature. They cannot cite even a single study in all of the published literature that actually supports their belief.

That is not to say that they do not cite any studies, but as I have also repeatedly observed, they simply mischaracterize their own cited sources, including taking statements completely out of their context and outright lying about what those sources do or do not say. In every instance in which they attempt to rely on published literature to sustain their belief, the sources they cite either do not support or directly contradict the claims for which they are cited.

As sufficiently demonstrated here, there is no amount of evidence that you could possibly present to them that they would accept as valid. To cling to their belief, they set the bar so high in terms of their demanded evidence that to meet their criteria is a logical impossibility.

This is illustrated by their argument that scientists would need to prove that the purified sample contains only virus before doing cell culture by observing virions with electron microscopy while at the same time rejecting observation of virions under electron microscopy as proof of a virus.

It is further illustrated by their rejection even of the use of uninfected controls otherwise given the same treatment during cell culture on the grounds that scientists would have to also inoculate the control cells with the supernatant after magically removing the virus from that purified sample.

Far from adhering to the scientific method, the non-existence of viruses is to them simply a belief system that they cling to dogmatically, requiring them to dismiss offhandedly, to the point of absolute absurdity, all evidence—which is literally all of relevant scientific literature—that belies their ideology.

By persisting in their false claims despite their errors having been repeatedly pointed out to them by myself and others, Cowan and his colleagues have caused tremendous harm to the health freedom movement, rendering their regrettably large number of faithful followers utterly ineffective in the fight against medical tyranny that was existential before the COVID‑19 pandemic and that escalated to frightening new heights under the lockdown regime with its coerced mass vaccination endgame.

We must rather combat this authoritarianism with effective arguments, which means we must support our arguments by citing the scientific literature rather than dismissing the literature and legitimizing the claims from the proponents of medical tyranny that members of the health freedom movement are spreading misinformation and engaging in science denialism.

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  • Chris says:

    Many people believe masks are effective barriers against airborne viruses, despite all real-world data providing evidence to the contrary.

    Many people believe /axxenes are safe and effective, despite all real-world evidence to the contrary.

    Many people believe the earth is flat, rejecting everything about the physics of this universe.

    We’re in a time when facts have become irrelevant along with informed speculation. Continuing to argue the point is a waste of energy, IMO.

    • We’re in a time when facts have become irrelevant along with informed speculation. Continuing to argue the point is a waste of energy, IMO.

      Facts matter, and if you you don’t understand the purpose of addressing these false claims, please read the final paragraph of my conclusion.

  • Benjamin Musclow says:

    “As another example, there has actually been a human challenge study with SARS‑CoV‑2 demonstrating the transmissibility and pathogenicity of the virus. Titled “Safety, tolerability and viral kinetics during SARS‑CoV‑2 human challenge in young adults”, it was published in March 2022 in Nature Medicine.”

    I hope you read the entire article. Using PCR to detect viral load is extremely problematic (and not scientific) as the inventor of the technology (Mullis) has repeatedly clarified. You have claimed in the past that PCR is the “gold standard” test – on what scientific process do you rely to verify such a statement? Secondly, where is there any mention of a control in the experiment? It should seem pretty obvious that squirting “viral stock” liquid up the nostrils and then making sure the person absorbs all the liquid (with various body positions and nose plugs) would easily cause irritation such as a sore throat and side effects such as sniffles and sneezing! What evidence is there in this human study that a supposed virus caused any disease?

    • You have claimed in the past that PCR is the “gold standard” test …

      No, I haven’t. And they did not only use PCR assays to determine the outcome of infection. They also were able to confirm PCR results by culturing virus from infected subjects.

      Secondly, where is there any mention of a control in the experiment?

      For what purpose? Koch’s posulates had already been fulfilled in animal challenge studies, as I’ve shown you. That was not the aim of this study. Rather: “Here we report results from the first volunteers inoculated with SARS-CoV-2 in a human challenge study, the primary objective of which was to identify an inoculum dose that induced well-tolerated infection in more than 50% of participants, with secondary objectives to assess virus and symptom kinetics during infection. Our findings demonstrate the feasibility of deliberate infection with SARS-CoV-2…. The primary objective was to identify a dose of wild-type SARS-CoV-2 in healthy volunteers with an acceptable safety profile that induced laboratory-confirmed infection in ≥50% of participants, suitable for future human challenge studies.”

  • Mike Stone says:

    On Facebook, you responded to a friend of mine in a post that I was tagged in. You stated:

    “I pointed out the falsity of Cowan’s claims that scientists never purify samples before isolating viruses in cell culture”

    You linked to this article as proof of your claims. I responded to you with the below comment and have yet to get a response with any clarification so I figured I would reach out here in case you missed it:

    Are you claiming that virologists start off with a sample of nothing but purified “viral” particles before the cell culture process is started? If so, you are committing a factual and logical error right off the bat. Putting the fluids through a purification step before culturing does not mean that the “virus” has been purified, i.e. free of contaminants, pollutants, foreign materials, etc. The particles are most definitely not isolated either, i.e. separated from everything else, before culturing. Virologists never check the sample before culturing to establish whether or not only the assumed “viral” particles are in the sample. In fact, they admit regularly that this level of purification can not be achieved as there are not enough “virus” particles, hence the need to culture them.

    • Mike, my statement is sufficiently clear that I feel no need to clarify. It suffices to simply reiterate that scientists only ever inoculate cell culture with “an unpurified sample” is demonstrably false. Since you acknowledge that scientists do purify samples prior to doing cell culture, I will take that as an acknowledgment of the falsity of Cowan’s claim.

  • Mike Stone says:

    “Mike, my statement is sufficiently clear that I feel no need to clarify.”

    That is a cop-out Jeremy. I’m asking you for a simple clarification. If the purification steps are performed before culturing, does the sample contain nothing but the assumed “viral” particles before it is added to the culture. Yes or no.

    • Mike, please demonstrate a modicum of good faith by acknowledging that Cowan’s claim that scientists only ever inoculate cell culture with “an unpurified sample” is false.

      • Mike Stone says:

        Jeremy, please demonstrate a modicum of good faith by answering my simple yes or no question to you. Your answer will show whether or not Dr. Cowan’s purification claim is false. Please stop these attempts to avoid answering. A simple yes or no will suffice. Once I get your response, we can progress the conversation forward accordingly. That’s how conversations work.

      • Mike, I would be happy to further discuss the matter just as soon as you demonstrate a modicum of good faith by acknowledging that I am correct that Cowan’s claim that scientists only ever inoculate cell culture with “an unpurified sample” is false. Once you demonstrate intellectual honesty by explicitly acknowledging the falsity of Cowan’s claim, we can progress the conversation forward accordingly. That’s how conversations work.

      • Mike Stone says:

        Jeremy, I have already explained to you that performing purification steps does not mean the sample is purified. Please reread:

        “Are you claiming that virologists start off with a sample of nothing but purified “viral” particles before the cell culture process is started? If so, you are committing a factual and logical error right off the bat. Putting the fluids through a purification step before culturing does not mean that the “virus” has been purified, i.e. free of contaminants, pollutants, foreign materials, etc. The particles are most definitely not isolated either, i.e. separated from everything else, before culturing. Virologists never check the sample before culturing to establish whether or not only the assumed “viral” particles are in the sample. In fact, they admit regularly that this level of purification can not be achieved as there are not enough “virus” particles, hence the need to culture them.”

        The virologist would need to show that after the purification steps are performed that the sample contains nothing but the assumed “viral” particles. Only then can the sample be said to be purified.

        Now, are you claiming that after these purification steps are done, nothing but the assumed “viral” particles are in the sample? Yes or no.

      • Mike, you say:

        Jeremy, I have already explained to you that performing purification steps does not mean the sample is purified.

        And I have already explained to you that Cowan’s claim that scientists only ever inoculate cell cultures with “an unpurified sample” is false since scientists do purify samples, such as by centrifugation, before inoculation in cell culture; I have already pointed out to you that Cowan’s own “Statement on Virus Isolation” acknowledges that centrifugation is a process that “purifies the specimen; I have already pointed out to you how Cowan’s guest Haberland acknowledges that I am right that “scientists have purified the sample before doing cell culture”; and I have already shown you how scientists do not have to prove 100% purification of a sample to demonstrate the presence of a virus in that purified sample.

        Now, then, please demonstrate a modicum of good faith by acknowledging that Cowan’s claim that scientists only ever use “an unpurified sample” for inoculation in cell culture is false. Final opportunity. If you persist in demonstrating bad faith, your commenting privileges will be revoked in accordance with the terms of use of this website.

  • Mike Stone says:

    Jeremy, you are talking in circles trying to avoid answering my question. I am not going to agree with you in regards to something I have already told you is a false conclusion on YOUR part, not Dr. Cowan’s, just to move the conversation forward. You are stalling. It is you who is incorrect as putting a sample through purification steps such as centrifugation does not mean the sample is PURIFIED (i.e. free of contaminants, pollutants, foreign materials, etc.) and contains only the assumed “viral” particles. Unless you can show where they demonstrate that only the “viral” particles exist in the sample after the purification procedures are done and before culturing, you are being deliberately misleading in your representation of what Dr. Cowan is saying. You are displaying intellectual dishonesty here.

    “I have already shown you how scientists do not have to prove 100% purification of a sample to demonstrate the presence of a virus in that purified sample.”

    This is blatantly false. It is not enough to assume a “virus” is present in a sample after purification. CPE observed in cell culture is not proof of a “virus” as there are numerous other factors not related to fictional “viruses” that can lead to the exact same effect in cell cultures. In order to adhere to the scientific method, there needs to be a valid independent variable, i.e. nothing but the purified and isolated particles. These assumed “viral” particles must be identified, characterized, and shown to exist within the sample first before one can claim how to grow them in cell culture. If you do not understand what a valid independent variable is, I suggest you research the scientific method. The independent variable (purified and isolated “viral” particles) must be shown to exist BEFORE experimentation (cell culturing). If you disagree, you do not understand the scientific method and you are admitting to engaging in the defense of pseudoscience.

    Now back to my question, are you claiming that before culturing, the purification procedures result in nothing but the assumed “viral” particles existing within the sample? Yes or no?

    If YES, please share where this is determined.

    If NO, please demonstrate a modicum of good faith by acknowledging that Dr. Cowan’s claim that scientists only ever use “an unpurified sample” (i.e. not just the assumed “viral” particles; still contains contaminants, pollutants, foreign materials, etc.) for inoculation in cell culture is true.

    If you fail to answer me again and/or ban me, I will take that as your concession that what I am saying is correct and you have revoked your false statement about Dr. Cowan but do not want to admit to it publicly.

    • Mike, you are talking in circles trying to avoid acknowledging the fact that Cowan’s claim that scientists only ever inoculate cell culture with “an unpurified sample” is demonstrably false. The fact that you refuse to acknowledge this basic fact despite knowing perfectly well that scientists do purify samples by filtration or centrifugation simply proves your intellectual dishonesty.

      You assert, “It is you who is incorrect as putting a sample through purification steps such as centrifugation does not mean the sample is PURIFIED”, despite my having already pointed out to you that Cowan’s own “Statement on Virus Isolation” acknowledges that centrifugation is a process that “purifies the specimen” and that Cowan’s own guest Marvin Haberland acknowledges that I am right that “scientists have purified the sample before doing cell culture”.

      You assert that my statement that “scientists do not have to prove 100% purification of a sample to demonstrate the presence of a virus in that purified sample” is “blatantly false” on the grounds that “It is not enough to assume a ‘virus’ is present in a sample after purification”, which is a false premise fallacy since there is no need to “assume” that a virus is present in the sample when it is rather scientifically demonstrated, as I have already explained ad nauseam.

      You repeat the assertion that CPE observed in cell culture may be caused by factors other than a virus, but this is precisely why, contrary to Cowan’s false claim, scientists do use uninfected controls during cell culture.

      You assert that the presence of the virus must be proven prior to inoculation in cell culture, which, as I have already explained, is nonsensical since the replication of the virus in cell culture is precisely the means by which scientists determine whether there is a virus present in the sample.

      You persist in denying this fact despite having also repeatedly refused to acknowledge that the whole genome sequencing of the virus is independent proof of the virus’s existence.

      You say, “If you fail to answer me again and/or ban me, I will take that as your concession that what I am saying is correct and you have revoked your false statement about Dr. Cowan but do not want to admit to it publicly.” But I have already answered your question by pointing out that its premise is false. Once again, scientists do not have to prove 100% purification of a sample to demonstrate the presence of a virus in that purified sample. I reiterate that Cowan’s claim that scientists only ever inoculate cell cultures with “an unpurified sample” is blatantly false.

      Since despite repeated opportunities to demonstrate good faith you have instead repeatedly proven your lack of good faith and engaged in trolling behavior by refusing to simply acknowledge the demonstrable falsity of Cowan’s claim that scientists only ever inoculate cell culture with “an unpurified sample”, as well as the demonstrable falsity of his claim that scientists never user controls when doing cell culture, in accordance with the terms of use of this site, your privileges are revoked.

  • tomdalton62 says:

    Hi Jeremy,

    I don’t know exactly what Tom Cowan said about purifying samples, so I can’t comment on that.

    But, if you don’t mind, I would like to ask you a question.

    I am not a scientist, so please forgive me if I say something silly. Anyway, here is my question:

    When virologists say they have purified a sample by filtration, centrifugation or whatever else they do, before adding it to a cell culture; does that mean that they end up with just the virus (and nothing else) in a solution of pure water or saline or whatever liquid they use?

    Or, could the ‘purified’ sample still contain contaminants, pollutants, foreign materials, (possibly different bits of organic matter which are of a similar size or density as the virus), etc?

    I have never been able to obtain a clear answer to this question. I am hoping that you might be able to give me one.

    Thanks for reading my post.

    Best regards,

    Tom. (Another Tom. lol)

    • Tom, 100% purification is neither practically feasible nor necessary for scientists to prove that a virus is present in a sample.

      • tomdalton62 says:

        Hi Jeremy,

        I fully appreciate that 100% purification is neither practically feasible nor necessary for scientists to prove that a virus is present in a sample.

        So I assume that means that a virologist’s ‘purified’ sample could still contain contaminants, pollutants, foreign materials, (possibly different bits of organic matter which are of a similar size or density as the virus), etc.

        Am I correct in assuming that? Or am I missing something?

      • Thank you for acknowledging that 100% purification is neither practically feasible nor necessary for scientists to prove that a virus is present in a sample. What this means is that there may possibly be particles of similar dimension as viruses in the sample, such as exosomes, which are similar in dimension to enveloped viruses and are difficult to separate by centrifugation, but which do not replicate in cell culture and do not carry the genomic material of a novel betacoronavirus. In fact, exosomes can be utilized by viruses to gain transport and entry into other cells. I discuss that here:
        https://www.jeremyrhammond.com/2022/09/29/tom-cowans-sources-contradict-claims-sars-cov-2/

      • tomdalton62 says:

        Hi Jeremy.

        Thanks for clearing that up for me. I find some of this stuff quite difficult to understand.

      • I’m glad I was able to clear it up for you.

  • K says:

    I just heard you say that one type of attack by propagandists is ad hominem attacks.

    What do you call this, complete with obvious innuendo: “godfather of virus denialism, Stefan Lanka”?

    • K,

      I just heard you say that one type of attack by propagandists is ad hominem attacks. What do you call this, complete with obvious innuendo: “godfather of virus denialism, Stefan Lanka”?

      I call it an accurate observation and certainly not an ad hominem argument. There is no innuendo: Lanka does deny the existence of viruses, and Cowan has literally characterized himself as carrying on Lanka’s legacy. I fail to see how you consider my observation to be some kind of personal attack.

  • TheAlmightyPill says:

    So many words to dance around the point. Very simply, to make a claim in science, you must eliminate *all* other variables, known and unknown. Virologists have never come close to doing this.

    You dance around the “purification” claim with semantics. Just because virologists perform what *they* call a “purification” step doesn’t mean the result is actually “purified” in a meaningful, scientific, rational sense, i.e. devoid of potentially confounding variables. Their claimed practical inability to do true purification is a problem with *their* claims, not those pointing out their nonsense.

    You skirt the point again with respect to supposed pathogenicity studies. Injecting saline is not a valid control because it is not a product of the identical process that the “infected samples” are put through minus the *only* variable to be tested: actually purified virions. This leaves unknowable confounding variables and the result is useless. I could prove that anything is “pathogenic” if I mixed it with gasoline, diluted it a bit with saline, then injected the result into some animals against a disingenuous control of pure saline.

    Most importantly, you again play a semantics game with respect to the lack of true controls in the culturing process. Just because some website has a definition of “mock infected” means nothing. How much ink have you spilled pointing out how vaccine studies fraudulently misuse the term “control”? Surely that word is defined somewhere so we must take their word on it! Yet here you are performing the same song and dance.

    You are truly on the wrong side here, and it’s painfully obvious to see. If you really are genuine but just confused I would suggest a very strong dose of humility.

    • You dance around the “purification” claim with semantics.

      On the contrary, it is Cowan who does that by falsely claiming that scientists only ever inoculate cell culture with an “unpurified” sample. A sample that has gone through the purification process of centrifugation is by definition not unpurified.

      Please demonstrate a modicum of good faith by acknowledging that simple logical truism.

      Very simply, to make a claim in science, you must eliminate *all* other variables, known and unknown. Virologists have never come close to doing this.

      By this reasoning, every observational study ever done in epidemiology is scientifically invalid, which is nonsense. Science does not become non-science just because scientists aren’t able to perfectly control every single variable.

      You skirt the point again with respect to supposed pathogenicity studies. Injecting saline is not a valid control…

      Of course it is. Your suggestion that scientists should instead use a product of “the identical process that the ‘infected samples’ are put through minus the *only* variable to be tested: actually purified virions” is nonsensical, the same demand for scientists to perform magic as I addressed already above.

      • TheAlmightyPill says:

        I have some raw sewage I purified through centrifugation. Care to drink a glass?

        > By this reasoning, every observational study ever done in epidemiology is scientifically invalid…

        Correct, epidemiology is not science, it is glorified storytelling. If you want to make claims of causation you absolutely must control for all variables.

        > Your suggestion that scientists should…

        So you agree then that gasoline is pathogenic if injecting it in animals alongside a saline control sickens them.

      • TheAlmightyPill says:

        Correction: I will run the raw sewage through a purification step of filtering through cheesecloth. You cannot now, with any microscopic morsel of good faith, turn down a glass of my purified drinking water by claiming it is “unpurified” or “contaminated.”

      • I have some water purified to something less than 100% by a filtration system. When we drink the water, we are not drinking “unpurified” water. Shall I presume that you refuse to drink any water that is less than 100% pure on the grounds that it is “unpurified”? I advise against that. You will die.

        Please demonstrate a modicum of good faith by acknowledging the distinction between (a) the supernatant obtained by the purification of a patient sample and (b) an “unpurified” sample. Please then also acknowledge that the claim that scientists only ever use the latter and never the former for inoculation in cell culture is false.

      • I have some raw sewage I purified through centrifugation. Care to drink a glass?

        Do you mean you have some water that you purified by centrifugation? If so, sure, I’ll drink it. I have some water purified to something less than 100% by a filtration system. When we drink the water, we are not drinking “unpurified” water. Shall I presume that you refuse to drink any water that is less than 100% pure on the grounds that it is “unpurified”?

        Correct, epidemiology is not science, it is glorified storytelling. If you want to make claims of causation you absolutely must control for all variables.

        This is nonsense. Epidemiology is science because there is no rule of science that demands absolute methodological perfection. There is no rule of science that demands that scientists achieve the impossible in order to contribute to our knowledge of the world. The scientific method is rather a practice of continually questioning, testing, and improving.

        So you agree then that gasoline is pathogenic if injecting it in animals alongside a saline control sickens them.

        What? Gasoline? Of course if you inject an animal with gasoline it is going to make it sick if not kill it. What is your point? How is this a response to what I said? I repeat: Your suggestion that scientists should not use a saline placebo during animal challenge studies and instead should use a product of “the identical process that the ‘infected samples’ are put through minus the *only* variable to be tested: actually purified virions” is nonsensical, the same demand for scientists to perform magic as I addressed already above. Scientists do not do magic, and demanding that they perform feats of magic is not reasonable.

        Please demonstrate a modicum of good faith by acknowledging the distinction between the supernatant obtained by the purification of a patient sample and an “unpurified” sample. Please then also acknowledge that the claim that scientists only ever use the latter and never the former for inoculation in cell culture is false.

      • tomdalton62 says:

        How do you do that quoting thing with the vertical blue lines? I would like to be able to do that. Thanks.

      • You can use some HTML markup in the comments, including the “blockquote”:
        https://html5doctor.com/blockquote-q-cite/

      • tomdalton62 says:

        You can use some HTML markup in the comments, including the “blockquote”:

        I think I’ve done it

      • TheAlmightyPill says:

        > Please demonstrate a modicum of good faith by acknowledging the distinction…

        Purification, by clear and uncompromising definition, means complete removal of *any* and *all* adulterations and contaminants. Filtration and centrifugation are not remotely synonymous with purification. The former are methods that don’t necessitate a specific result. Purification is any method that necessarily achieves a very specific resultant state. So yes, I will drink filtered but unpurified water. Will you drink my lightly filtered sewage water if I label it “purified” like a virologist would?

        When virologists use the word “purification” they are doing so fraudulently. The supernatant they use is *by definition* unpurified, unless they can prove the necessary resultant state: free of *everything* but virions. It has never happened. So your distinction is non-existent.

        > This is nonsense. Epidemiology…

        No one is saying that all experiments must be perfect. But validity and conclusions are limited by methodological insufficiencies. Virology methodology is fatally flawed, to the point of utter meaninglessness, if not outright fraud. Epidemiology is generally so poor as to be roughly equivalent to creative writing on the rigorousness scale.

        > What? Gasoline?…

        By virology “standards” it is valid science to take your “infectious” sample, mix it with whatever you want (regardless any known or unknown toxicities), then inject it against a pure saline fake “control” to prove pathogenicity. So by virology “standards” I can prove that distilled water is pathogenic by mixing it with gasoline and injecting it alongside pure saline.

        Did you know that distilled water is a deadly pathogen? Maybe you really ought to stick with drinking lightly filtered–but labeled “purified”–sewage.

      • Why is it so hard for you fervent believes in the nonexistence of viruses to demonstrate a modicum of good faith by simply acknowledge the logical distinction between the supernatant obtained from the the purification process of centrifugation and “an unpurified sample”?

        It is ludicrous to insist that there is no distinction. Logically, there is a distinction. Denying this simply illustrates the dogmatism of your position. For proving your bad faith by insisting there is no logical distinction, your privileges are revoked.

      • osugwe says:

        Jeremy,

        Forget about Cowan et al.. Do you really think that the experiments suporting the claim that a new virus caused a pneumonia outbreak in Wuhan can be taken seriously? There are lots of inconsistensies..

        https://anthonycolpo.substack.com/p/sars-cov-2-does-not-exist-part-2?utm_source=%2Fsearch%2Fsars&utm_medium=reader2

        https://anthonycolpo.substack.com/p/peer-reviewed-fact-what-they-are

      • I have thoroughly demonstrated the factual and logical errors in the arguments that are used to support the belief that the virus does not exist.

        https://www.jeremyrhammond.com/articles/collections/virus/

      • OGW says:

        ¨I have thoroughly demonstrated the factual and logical errors in the arguments that are used to support the belief that the virus does not exist.¨

        Well, that may be true for Cowan et al., but you did not address the arguments in my sources.

        To clarify, I know that you think that the evidence proves that the Wuhan virus exists.. but do you think that the virus causes pneumonia?

      • There is no point in getting into a discussion about the pathogenicity of a virus with anyone who does not believe in the existence of the virus.

        Please do familiarize yourself with the terms of use of the comments section of this website.

      • OGW says:

        The existence of the virus IS related to its pathogenicity.
        When you say that the virus exists, you are implicity saying that it causes disease.
        What would be the point in arguing about the existence of a particle which is harmless?
        Those who claim that the virus exists are implying that it is pathogenic entity..
        You love finding contradictions in the official narrative, but for some reason you don’t want to learn the inconsistencies in the Wuhan story.

      • The existence of the virus IS related to its pathogenicity.

        Obviously. But my point remains that it is pointless to discuss the pathogenicity of a virus with someone who denies its existence.

        You love finding contradictions in the official narrative, but for some reason you don’t want to learn the inconsistencies in the Wuhan story.

        Nonsense. This is an ad hominem fallacy. Again, I have spent a great deal of time investigating the claims of those who claim the virus does not exist, and I have documented at great length the factual and logical errors used to support that belief:

        https://www.jeremyrhammond.com/articles/collections/virus/

      • OGW says:

        ¨Obviously. But my point remains that it is pointless to discuss the pathogenicity of a virus with someone who denies its existence.¨

        Ok, let´s assume it exists (as a pathogen) so we can have a discussion and expose all the contradictions. Hopefully, this
        Do you think that the virus caused a pneumonia outbreak in China and then a pandemic?

        ¨Nonsense. This is an ad hominem fallacy. Again, I have spent a great deal of time investigating the claims of those who claim the virus does not exist, and I have documented at great length the factual and logical errors used to support that belief..¨

        But it is evident that you did not research the arguments claiming that a new coronavirus was the cause of a mysterious pneumonia or the other links I posted.

      • Ok, let´s assume it exists (as a pathogen) so we can have a discussion and expose all the contradictions.

        The question this article addresses is whether the virus exists, and that is the specific topic for discussion therefore. I am not going to get into a discussion with you about its pathogenicity when you have made it so clear that you do not believe it exists. That is absolutely pointless and would be obviously be a complete waste of my time. If you think I’ve erred in this or any of my other numerous articles debunking the many false claims made by those propagating the belief that viruses do not exist, you are welcome to point them out to me. So far, you have not done identified any errors on my part.

        But it is evident that you did not research the arguments claiming that a new coronavirus was the cause of a mysterious pneumonia or the other links I posted.

        More nonsense. Of course I have researched the question of pathogenicity just as I have researched the claims that the virus does not exist.

      • OGW says:

        ¨More nonsense. Of course I have researched the question of pathogenicity just as I have researched the claims that the virus does not exist.¨

        Ok, so maybe you can explain these contradictions in the argument trying to prove that a novel virus caused a pneumonia outbreak in Wuhan:

        For example, chinese authorities said in december 2019 that common respiratory pathogens were ruled out as the cause in the pneumonia outbreak.

        https://www.who.int/hongkongchina/news/detail/09-01-2020-who-statement-regarding-cluster-of-pneumonia-cases-in-wuhan-china

        https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jan/09/china-pneumonia-outbreak-may-be-caused-by-sars-type-virus-who

        Obviously, the claim that a specific pathogen is causing a disease rests on the premise that no other pathogen is present that could be causing that problem. This is not my opinion, it is precisely what the scientific literature (see SARS-CoV-1 isolation experiments below) and health authorities have been saying.

        But in the case of SARS-CoV-2, the experiments ruling out other pathogens in the Wuhan paper (Zhu et al.) were a joke when you compare them with the number of methodologies used and the number of microorganisms screened in the SARS-CoV-1 papers.

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7092803/

        https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa030747?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%20%200www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

        https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa030781

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7112372/

        https://www.nejm.org/doi/10.1056/NEJMoa030634?url_ver=Z39.88-2003&rfr_id=ori:rid:crossref.org&rfr_dat=cr_pub%20%200www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

        What a coincidence that an independent analysis DID find evidence of many other pathogens in the very same NGS data obtained from the first Wuhan patients.

        https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33194423/

        Not to mention the numerous studies – even dating back to the supposed outbreak- detecting other pathogens together with SARS-CoV-2 in most patients (see below for an example).

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7213959/

        It is obvious that if chinese authorities had reported other pathogens instead of lying, they could have never paved the way for the ¨novel virus¨ narrative.

        So, it is evident that the whole notion of a new pathogen causing a pneumonia outbreak is refuted by its own premise (absence of other microorganisms to prove causality).

      • But in the case of SARS-CoV-2, the experiments ruling out other pathogens in the Wuhan paper (Zhu et al.) were a joke…

        Explain.

        What a coincidence that an independent analysis DID find evidence of many other pathogens in the very same NGS data obtained from the first Wuhan patients.

        https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33194423/

        Were the 5 patients the same as any of the patients for which certain other infections were ruled out?

        Also, your own source here confirms not only that SARS-CoV-2 exists but that it causes COVID-19, so it contradicts your own position.

      • OGW says:

        ¨Explain.¨

        As I stated, the problems were both the number of methodologies used and the number of microorganisms screened, when compared to the SARS-CoV-1 literature.

        For example, contrary to some of the SARS-CoV-1 isolation papers, Zhu et al did not perform serologic or microscopic studies to rule out other pathogens, and did not evaluate human cytomegalovirus, hendra virus, nipha virus, herpesvirus, arenavirus, bunyavirus, alfavirus, flavivirus, filovirus, parvovirus or circovirus, as well as the bacteria Coxiella, Yersinia and Rickettsia.

        Moreover, the earlier report published in the China CDC journal (see the reference below) mentioned 4 patients, whereas Zhu et al mentioned 3 only.

        https://weekly.chinacdc.cn/en/article/id/e3c63ca9-dedb-4fb6-9c1c-d057adb77b57

        Interestingly, chinese researchers were trying to isolate the virus from at least 10 of the first 59 patients, but for some reason they never showed the data. Not to mention that one patient were no evidence of the virus could be found according to Xu Jianguo´s interview (see the link below), was reported as positive in the Huang paper (even more inconsistencies).

        https://www.science.org/content/article/mystery-virus-found-wuhan-resembles-bat-viruses-not-sars-chinese-scientist-says

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7159299/

        Therefore, it is evident that chinese researchers were erasing patients every time they communicated the notion that a new virus was the cause of the outbreak.

        Therefore, all this is clearly a joke, as I already stated.

        ¨Were the 5 patients the same as any of the patients for which certain other infections were ruled out?¨

        Yes. Interestingly, the WIV04 patient who was used to ¨isolate¨ SARS-CoV-2 in the Zhou paper in favor of the new virus hypothesis, also showed evidence of Influenza type A genes coding for both SP and NSP (see the Abouelkhair paper).

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7095418/

        Again, it is obvious that if chinese authorities had reported other pathogens instead of lying, they could have never paved the way for the ¨novel virus¨ narrative.

        So, it is evident that the whole notion of a new pathogen causing a pneumonia outbreak is refuted by its own premise (absence of other microorganisms to prove causality).

        ¨Also, your own source here confirms not only that SARS-CoV-2 exists but that it causes COVID-19, so it contradicts your own position.¨

        This is absurd. You need to see the facts, not the opinion of the authors. You know this very well, as we can see from your articles. Sometimes the results of a study are consistent with other views that the authors neglect based on dogma and faulty assumptions. This is like saying that your VE articles are contradicted by your sources reinforcing the safe and effective narrative and dismissing negative VE values as statistical artifacts or residual confounding.

        The great contradiction here is that the whole notion of a new pathogen causing a pneumonia outbreak is refuted by its own sources (the ruling out of other microorganisms to prove causality).

      • For example, contrary to some of the SARS-CoV-1 isolation papers…

        Such as? Please pick one and provide the relevant details from it so that we can examine it for comparison because I simply do not have the time to read all of the sources you have provided links to for the purpose of evaluating the legitimacy of your argument. I am reasonably willing to give you minutes but not hours if not days of my time.

        Moreover, the earlier report published in the China CDC journal (see the reference below) mentioned 4 patients, whereas Zhu et al mentioned 3 only.

        But I just clicked the link to scan Zhu et al for relevant details and see that they clearly state, “Four lower respiratory tract samples, including bronchoalveolar-lavage fluid, were collected from patients with pneumonia of unknown cause who were identified in Wuhan on December 21, 2019…” So, you immediately appear to me to be simply incorrect in your claims.

        Consequently, I have to conclude that I should not be spending more time on this at the moment. You are welcome to pursue the discussion with respect for my time.

      • OGW says:

        ¨But I just clicked the link to scan Zhu et al for relevant details and see that they clearly state, “Four lower respiratory tract samples, including bronchoalveolar-lavage fluid, were collected from patients with pneumonia of unknown cause who were identified in Wuhan on December 21, 2019…” So, you immediately appear to me to be simply incorrect in your claims.¨

        Yes, you are correct. In the Methods section, Zhu et al refered to four samples collected “..from patients..”, without specifying the number of patients.

        However, you need to continue reading to find out that I am correct in my claims:

        At the beginning of the Results section (page 729) they stated: “Three adult patients presented with severe pneumonia and were admitted to a hospital in Wuhan on December 27, 2019. ”

        And later they stated the following (page 730): “Three bronchoalveolar-lavage samples were collected from Wuhan Jinyintan Hospital on December 30, 2019.”, contradicting the statement which you correctly quoted that mentioned four samples and another date.

        Also, on page 730, Zhu et al later state; “The novel coronavirus was identified from all three patients.”, confirming that they used 3 patients.

        And on page 733 they further confirmed this: “We describe in this report the use of molecular techniques and unbiased DNA sequencing to discover a novel betacoronavirus that is likely to have been the cause of severe pneumonia in three patients in Wuhan, China.”

        Therefore, it is obvious that this paper is a mess and somehow managed to pass peer-review, as well as all the isolation papers which are conflicting in terms of dates and patients, as I have already mentioned in one of my previous sources.

        I know that you don´t have time, but then you must admit that you did not dedicate the same amount of time to research all of this with respect to other issues, which of course I really value.

        ¨Consequently, I have to conclude that I should not be spending more time on this at the moment. You are welcome to pursue the discussion with respect for my time.¨

        Of course, how can we continue this discussion respecting your time then? I am open to answer all your questions, but you did not address my main argument that the whole notion of a new pathogen causing a pneumonia outbreak is refuted by its own premise (the absence of other microorganisms to prove causality).

      • Therefore, it is obvious that this paper is a mess…

        No, it is not obviously so. You said that this CCDC report mentions 4 patients:

        https://weekly.chinacdc.cn/en/article/id/e3c63ca9-dedb-4fb6-9c1c-d057adb77b57

        But that Zhu et al mention only 3 patients:

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7092803/

        And you argue that therefore the CCDC is contradicted by Zhu et al.

        But that conclusion does not follow from the premises. Both the CCDC report and Zhu et al note an unspecified number of additional cases. The four mentioned by CCDC were admitted on December 19, while the three mentioned by Zhu et al were admitted on December 27, so these are obviously not describing the same patients, and hence there is no apparent contradiction.

      • OGW says:

        ¨And you argue that therefore the CCDC is contradicted by Zhu et al.¨

        Yes, it is contradictory even if they are different sets of patients. Their selective reporting is unacceptable unless they are hidding patients to obtain the results they want.

        Why they did not report all the data including the whole set of patients in the peer-reviewed manuscript?

        And you forgot about Xu Jianguo. They were trying to isolate the virus from at least 10 patients. Where are the results? Sadly we will never no.

        https://www.science.org/content/article/mystery-virus-found-wuhan-resembles-bat-viruses-not-sars-chinese-scientist-says

        Therefore, I mantain my original claim:

        It is evident from a cronological perspective, that chinese researchers were erasing patients every time they communicated the notion that a new virus was the cause of the outbreak.

        Even if you don´t accept all of the above which documents lack of transparency, it doesn´t change the fact that you always refuse to answer my biggest concern of all.

        You seem to at least accept that, in order to claim causality, other pathogens must be ruled out. I even satisfied your requirement:

        ¨Were the 5 patients the same as any of the patients for which certain other infections were ruled out?¨

        Yes. Interestingly, the WIV04 patient who was used to ¨isolate¨ SARS-CoV-2 in the Zhou paper in favor of the new virus hypothesis, also showed evidence of Influenza type A genes coding for both SP and NSP.

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7095418/

        https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33194423/

        I don´t have time for reposting always the same links again and again, if you are not interested in addressing this contradiction please tell me. I always address all of your questions, but you don´t. I am not sure if you are not doing so because lack of time and you will answer them in the future, or becuse you don´t want.

        Thanks.

      • Yes, it is contradictory even if they are different sets of patients. Their selective reporting is unacceptable unless they are hidding patients to obtain the results they want. Why they did not report all the data including the whole set of patients in the peer-reviewed manuscript?

        That makes no sense. It is not contradictory.

        And you forgot about Xu Jianguo. They were trying to isolate the virus from at least 10 patients. Where are the results? Sadly we will never no.

        https://www.science.org/content/article/mystery-virus-found-wuhan-resembles-bat-viruses-not-sars-chinese-scientist-says

        The Science article you cite says they had isolated the virus from one patient, had obtained whole genome sequences from 10 patients, and were attempting at the time to also isolate the virus from those additional samples. I do not know whether there was ever anything published about the findings of that effort, but assuming there wasn’t, so what? It doesn’t prove they were trying to hide something. You are again making an assumption and begging the question.

        It is evident from a cronological perspective, that chinese researchers were erasing patients…

        No, that is not evident.

        Interestingly, the WIV04 patient who was used to ¨isolate¨ SARS-CoV-2 in the Zhou paper in favor of the new virus hypothesis, also showed evidence of Influenza type A genes coding for both SP and NSP.

        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7643552/
        https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7095418/

        The paper by Abouelkhair does not cast doubt on the pathogenic potential of SARS-CoV-2. On the contrary, it confirms it. As noted, “Underlying co-infections in primary infectious disease are an important variable that needs to be considered but is often undetected.” That is not contradictory with Zhou et al., which did not claim to have eliminated the possibility of co-infections and described the isolated SARS-CoV-2 as “the likely aetiological agent responsible for the ongoing epidemic of acute respiratory syndrome” and explicitly stated, “The association between 2019-nCoV and the disease has not been verified by animal experiments to fulfil the Koch’s postulates to establish a causative relationship between a microorganism and a disease.”

        I don´t have time for reposting always the same links again and again, if you are not interested in addressing this contradiction please tell me.

        There simply isn’t a contradiction.

      • OGW says:

        ¨ That is not contradictory with Zhou et al., which did not claim to have eliminated the possibility of co-infections and described the isolated SARS-CoV-2 as “the likely aetiological agent responsible for the ongoing epidemic of acute respiratory syndrome”… ¨

        So, nobody in a scientific paper claims to have identified the cause of the pneumonia outbreak.

        Your statement confirms that we don´t know whether other pathogens were present together with the ¨new¨ virus.

        Do you know who said that other pathogens were ruled out when selling the notion of a new disease? The media, the chinese authorities and the WHO.

        Therefore, the entire narrative was based on presenting an assumption as a scientific fact (the absence of other pathogens). THIS is the contradiction.

        If most samples correctly tested consistently show presence of lots of pathogens, the authorities should have recognized that instead of lying.

        This explains why they never reported absolute figures (total cases of respiratory symptoms) and total deaths, just relative and useless numbers (positive PCR cases and deaths) as a proxy of the emergency.

        ¨ The paper by Abouelkhair does not cast doubt on the pathogenic potential of SARS-CoV-2. On the contrary, it confirms it. ¨

        Based on what experiments? You are citing dogma to support the claim that the new virus was the cause of the outbreak.

      • So, nobody in a scientific paper claims to have identified the cause of the pneumonia outbreak.

        That’s not what I said. Rather, I pointed out that there is no such contradiction as you have claimed in Zhou et al.

        You are citing dogma…

        No. On the contrary, I am simply citing what is actually in the scientific literature as opposed to relying on gross mischaracterizations of the literature to sustain the belief in the non-existence of viruses.

      • OGW says:

        ¨ That’s not what I said. ¨

        So, you are accepting that nobody in a scientific paper claims to have identified the cause of the pneumonia outbreak.

        Please address the main contradiction (WHO, media and chinese authoroties), not what Zhou et al. did or did not say.

        ¨ No. On the contrary, I am simply citing what is actually in the scientific literature as opposed to relying on gross mischaracterizations of the literature to sustain the belief in the non-existence of viruses. ¨

        You are citing only author opinion and dogma. Where is the scientific literature showing that a new virus caused a pneumonia outbreak in Wuhan?

        And I am not talking about viruses in general, I am stating that the claim that the Wuhan virus exists as a pathogenic entity is based on lies or speculations with reporting of useless numbers at best.

      • So, you are accepting that nobody in a scientific paper claims to have identified the cause of the pneumonia outbreak.

        No. I neither said nor implied that. You are trolling.

        Please address the main contradiction…

        You claimed contradictions, so I selected a key one to investigate, and I found there is no such contradiction as you have claimed. Now you are shifting the goalposts without acknowledging my legitimate observation that you are wrong.

      • OGW says:

        ¨No. I neither said nor implied that. You are trolling.¨

        I am not trolling. Of course that you did not say that, but it is implicit in your argument unless you can provide a scientific paper demonstrating the cause of the pneumonia epidemic.

        If the virus exists as a pathogenic entity, as you argue, where is the evidence?

        ¨Now you are shifting the goalposts without acknowledging my legitimate observation that you are wrong.¨

        First of all, I did not change the goalpoasts, since I mentioned the contradiction involving the chinese authorities several times since my first post, but for some reason you are avoiding it.

        Second, let´s discuss why you think that I am wrong. You argue that there is no contradiction just because Zhou et al. ¨did not claim to have eliminated the possibility of co-infections¨.

        However, that doesn´t change the fact that if other pathogens are found (Abouelkhair) in the sample from the same patient (WIV04) that Zhu et al. used for ¨isolating¨ a ¨new¨ virus, we logically can´t conclude that the new virus is the likely cause of the problem.

        So yes, the presence of other pathogens IS contradictory to the claim by Zhu et al., who argued that the new isolated virus was “the likely aetiological agent responsible for the ongoing epidemic of acute respiratory syndrome”.

        On what grounds the new virus is the likely aetiological agent if other pathogens, such as Influenza virus, are also present?

        By the way, and going back to the main contradiction (which in fact is the same one), Influenza WAS one of the pathogens that the chinese authorities, the WHO and the mainstream media told us that it was ruled out from the first patients in Wuhan.

        https://www.who.int/hongkongchina/news/detail/09-01-2020-who-statement-regarding-cluster-of-pneumonia-cases-in-wuhan-china

        https://www.theguardian.com/science/2020/jan/09/china-pneumonia-outbreak-may-be-caused-by-sars-type-virus-who

        How convenient for the ¨new virus as the cause of the outbreak narrative¨.

      • I am not trolling. Of course that you did not say that, but it is implicit in your argument unless…

        No. I neither stated nor implied the assertion you are falsely attributing to me.

        First of all, I did not change the goalpoasts…

        Sure you did. You claimed a contradiction. I investigated the claim and found it baseless. Instead of acknowledging your error, you tried to shift the focus to some other claimed contradiction.

        If the virus exists as a pathogenic entity, as you argue, where is the evidence?

        As I have told you repeatedly already, the topic of this article is the claim that viruses do not exist, and, moreover, it is pointless to get into a discussion about the pathogenicity of the virus with someone who doesn’t believe the virus exists.

        So yes, the presence of other pathogens IS contradictory to the claim by Zhu et al., who argued that the new isolated virus was “the likely aetiological agent responsible for the ongoing epidemic of acute respiratory syndrome”.

        There is no contradiction here. Again, concluding that SARS-CoV-2 infection was the “likely” cause is not the same as claiming that any other potential cause has been totally ruled out. Furthermore, again, the paper by Abouelkhair does not cast doubt on the pathogenic potential of SARS-CoV-2 but rather confirms it and agrees that SARS-CoV-2 was the “primary” infection with possible “co-infections”.

        So there is no such contradiction as you are claiming, period.

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